Originally Posted by ddt
??? He doesn't promote German as universal second language, does he?

No, but it was meant to predict a couple of not-nice remarks on his part if pressed on the point of why he hates english.


Quote:
****, this way your remark becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy
Not meant to be. But it depends on what he's going to do next.

FWIW: I wasn't expecting the Godwin from you. Sorry it looked that way. Can I grab the "English is my second language" defense at this point?
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17th June 2008, 05:36 AM #282
ddt
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Posts: 1,627 Originally Posted by The_Fire
No, but it was meant to predict a couple of not-nice remarks on his part if pressed on the point of why he hates english.
OK, fair enough. My intention was to probably leave it at the 2 cents .


Originally Posted by The_Fire
Not meant to be. But it depends on what he's going to do next.
We'll see. Maybe he ignores it.


Originally Posted by The_Fire
FWIW: I wasn't expecting the Godwin from you. Sorry it looked that way. Can I grab the "English is my second language" defense at this point?
Then I grab the "English is my second language" defense for misinterpreting your remark . No, I didn't interpret it as you pointing at anyone in particular for going to Godwinize the thread - I just didn't see where it would come in.
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17th June 2008, 10:28 PM #283
Nationalcosmopolitan
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Posts: 95 Quote:
This would require a global agency tasked with examining every child on the planet, and punishing those parents who fail to meet your standard.
Who fail to make their children trilingual persons with three natively known languages they have chosen for them.

Quote:
Aside from being a major invasion of personal rights and privacy, and aside from the sheer logistical absurdity, a global agency authorized by a religious body is something I, and many other people, would fight tooth and nail.
Today parents that refuse to send their children to school or refuse to give their children literacy are punished for making damage for their children.
In post monolingual world the same sort damage for their children will make parents that refuse to form from their children trilingual person.
So they have to be punished.

I can tell you more.
In the future world of general high education degree for everybody all people who makes barrier to the young man to achieve high-level education degree in every profession he wants will be punished.

And the same ways we have do with parents all over the world that urge to form from their children monolingual persons in the case when society pays for triligualisation of their children according their free three languages election.


Quote:
Your posts suggest an ulterior motive for your dislike of English as second language, viz. that your own English is lousy.
The same level of English have today 1400 millions of so called English as second language speaking persons all over the world.

That why I urge to give the languages to children natively or not to give them languages at all.
We have not form billions of lingual disable persons, mostly English disable persons.

Give three languages to the children to know natively chosen freely from all world languages list. And you will solve the problem for 20 years.
World will become trilingual persons world.




Quote:
but stuffing your crap in their kids' pockets is tantamount to abuse
All languages and cultures will become crap in monolingual totally speaking English world we all trend to go, except may be Hebrew and Arabic for because Torah and Koran.



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18th June 2008, 01:11 AM #284
six7s
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Posts: 2,343 Originally Posted by Nationalcosmopolitan
Today parents that refuse to send their children to school or refuse to give their children literacy are punished for making damage for their children.
Yeah? Which regime are you thinking of when you say that?

Oh, and as you (conveniently?) ignored my questions from the other day, I'll simply repost them:


Originally Posted by six7s
Punished? How? and By whom?
Originally Posted by Nationalcosmopolitan
In the future world of general high education degree for everybody
And I thought Nicolas Negroponte was an idealist...

I can see it now:




ODPC


Originally Posted by Nationalcosmopolitan
election.
You keep using this word, and it never makes sense... please, get a better dictionary


Originally Posted by Nationalcosmopolitan
All languages and cultures will become crap in monolingual totally speaking English world we all trend to go, except may be Hebrew and Arabic for because Torah and Koran.
Huh? They can't GO crap? Ah, I hear what you saying: "because Torah and Koran" they already are
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18th June 2008, 01:44 AM #285
skeptigirl
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Posts: 11,383 On the one hand, English is becoming the universal language. The French are going to have to give in soon.

On the other hand, it's been said (in some Outer Limits episode if I recall), the smarter person ends up learning the other person's language. It's obvious why.

I do believe native English speakers on the whole are less often multilingual than the native speakers of the other major languages. So it seems to support both hypotheses.


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18th June 2008, 02:09 AM #286
ddt
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Posts: 1,627 Originally Posted by Nationalcosmopolitan
Who fail to make their children trilingual persons with three natively known languages they have chosen for them.
You have failed to indicate where you get the third parent to teach the third language. Truly bilingual children have heard two languages from childbirth.


Originally Posted by Nationalcosmopolitan
Originally Posted by ddt
Your posts suggest an ulterior motive for your dislike of English as second language, viz. that your own English is lousy.
The same level of English have today 1400 millions of so called English as second language speaking persons all over the world.
I disagree. Several posters have in this thread commented in one way or another, on your poor command of English. You may notice there are a lot of posters on this board who have English as a second language and don't get such comments. So there are many out there with English as second language who are doing just fine.


Originally Posted by Nationalcosmopolitan
That why I urge to give the languages to children natively or not to give them languages at all. We have not form billions of lingual disable persons, mostly English disable persons.
Not giving language to a child is a severe abuse. When children haven't been exposed to language at kindergarten age, they'll never learn it. And "English disabled", no, the world has gotten used to it. Most children nowadays (at least in 1st world countries) are exposed to English from a young age anyway.


Originally Posted by Nationalcosmopolitan
All languages and cultures will become crap in monolingual totally speaking English world we all trend to go, except may be Hebrew and Arabic for because Torah and Koran.
The world is doing perfectly fine this way. No cultures are becoming crap because people learn English besides their mother tongue. If that were the case, the Swiss and the Belgians would have had a degenerate culture already for decades.
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18th June 2008, 02:11 AM #287
six7s
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Posts: 2,343 Originally Posted by skeptigirl
the smarter person ends up learning the other person's language. It's obvious why.
Pardon mon francaise, but bollocks

If it was in any way accurate, then parents would learn to speak dribblese and sheep would learn to speak Australian


Originally Posted by skeptigirl
I do believe native English speakers on the whole are less often multilingual than the native speakers of the other major languages.
I'd agree if you were simply talking about those affluent enuff to be tourists/business travellers/etc...


However, I'd be very reluctant to use such a broad brush to paint the hoi-polloi stuck-at-homes that I have encountered in the baker's dozen countries that I've traveled around so far

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18th June 2008, 05:10 AM #288
Hokulele
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Posts: 10,433 Originally Posted by Nationalcosmopolitan
Today parents that refuse to send their children to school or refuse to give their children literacy are punished for making damage for their children.

Umm, what? Have you been to a third world country recently?


Quote:
In post monolingual world the same sort damage for their children will make parents that refuse to form from their children trilingual person.
So they have to be punished.

Your obsession with punishment is very troubling.


Quote:
I can tell you more.

Darn.


Quote:
In the future world of general high education degree for everybody all people who makes barrier to the young man to achieve high-level education degree in every profession he wants will be punished.

You have absolutely no idea how education and social dynamics work in most of the world, do you?
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18th June 2008, 10:00 AM #289
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--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally Posted by Hokulele
You have absolutely no idea how education and social dynamics work in most of the world, do you?
No idea
+ No experience
+ No influence
= No problem


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18th June 2008, 01:27 PM #290
jimbob
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Posts: 2,313 It is appropriate though six7s.

I am not worried about monoglots, but several posters seem more like demiglots
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18th June 2008, 04:13 PM #291
skeptigirl
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Posts: 11,383 Originally Posted by six7s
Pardon mon francaise, but bollocks

If it was in any way accurate, then parents would learn to speak dribblese and sheep would learn to speak Australian



I'd agree if you were simply talking about those affluent enuff to be tourists/business travellers/etc...


However, I'd be very reluctant to use such a broad brush to paint the hoi-polloi stuck-at-homes that I have encountered in the baker's dozen countries that I've traveled around so far

Sheep are not people and dribblese is not a language, it is mouth part practice.

The comment was not meant as some universal truth. The reference to Outer Limits was your clue. And there was a winky in there. Sheesh.

On a more serious note, there are multiple factors here. The English language has in modern times, dominated the scientific research, not to say there are no scientists publishing in other languages, there are plenty. But English happens to have the majority.

Colonizers brought their political and economic powers to the countries they colonized so European languages spread around the world by areas conquered.

And English remains a language learned for economic reasons by many cultures still. It isn't the only one. A lot of bilingual countries speak French and the original native tongue.

I think some languages were handicapped with the modern printing industry and now keyboards that use the English alphabet. Chinese probably lost a bit of ground simply owing to the complexity of the characters in the written form.

Bottom line, there are lots of factors which culminate in the universal language of globalization. I don't see how you can make much of a case for that being any language except English, but I don't rule out something in the future shifting that trend before it is finalized. However, the odds are not high it will change. English is already quite a ways along in becoming the global language.
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18th June 2008, 09:04 PM #292
jimbob
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Posts: 2,313 Isn't it simply that those with the greater need or motivation to learn the different language will.

The Welsh learned to speak English becuse they were punished if they didn't. They were also punished if they spoke Welah. This was especially important at primary school.

The language of administration of the BritishRoman Empire was EnglishLatin. Speaking it was useful for advancement, and as a status indicator. Schools in the British Empire would teach English.

After the industrial revolution, the UK and then the US were the largest economies and the most powerful countries. If you wanted to do business in these countries you needed to speak English, if you wanted to learn a single other language, English gave you access to the largest market, especially as you could also do business with people form other countries who also wanted to do business with the US or UK.
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19th June 2008, 09:21 AM #293
Complexity
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Posts: 3,690 NationalCosmopolitan - I'm really going to enjoy watching you writhe in frustration for the rest of your life while you are utterly ignored.
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19th June 2008, 09:57 AM #294
six7s
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Posts: 2,343 Originally Posted by skeptigirl
dribblese is not a language, it is mouth part practice.

... Sheesh
Sheesh indeed

I assumed it would be obvious that I was being somewhat flippant

However, dribblese is a language, or at least method of communication - one that clever parents are rewarded by efforts to understand


Originally Posted by skeptigirl
The reference to Outer Limits was your clue
A clue far too cryptic for me I'm afraid... Being a less than avid tv watcher - and even less inlined towards sci-fi (unless the number 42 features prominently ), I was completely unaware of the series


Originally Posted by skeptigirl
Sheep are not people
Two legs good, four legs baad?
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19th June 2008, 10:00 AM #295
six7s
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Posts: 2,343 Originally Posted by Complexity
NationalCosmopolitan - I'm really going to enjoy watching you writhe in frustration for the rest of your life while you are utterly ignored.
Does that count as a fail on the Turing Test?


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19th June 2008, 03:34 PM #296
Complexity
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Posts: 3,690 Originally Posted by six7s
Does that count as a fail on the Turing Test?


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ETA: apparently, he was a homosexual

Yep. NC is a person - I have far too much respect for machines to mistake him for one.

What a very, very silly thing to waste one's life on.

If only he'd do it silently, in a corner, and out of sight of the childen.
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19th June 2008, 05:42 PM #297
wollery
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Posts: 7,062 Nationalcosmopolitan, as a former teacher, may I just say that your plan is both idiotic, and unworkable.

First, you want to force everyone in the world to adhere to a plan based on your own particular religious convictions, and the vast majority of the world's population will tell you where you can shove that idea.

Second, some people just suck at languages. It's a fact. The same way some people suck at maths, or science, or telling jokes. That's just the way we are. Some people are so bad at languages that they can't even speak their own single mother tongue correctly. And you want these people to learn 2 additional languages. Even if you could get everyone to agree to your plan, it wouldn't work, because there will be huge numbers of kids who just can't cope with learning more than one language.

Third, even if you could get everyone to agree to your plan, AND every kid in the world had the capability, loads of those kids would simply refuse to pay attention in class, and would refuse to do their 3rd language homework. That's just reality. And anyone who's ever taught in a school will confirm it.

Fourthly, as has already been pointed out by others, to be a native bilingual requires that one either have parents with different native languages, or one grows up in a country which has a different native language to your parents.

I actually know 3 kids who are natively trilingual - their father is Australian, their mother is Finnish, and they're growing up in China, so they speak English, Finnish, and Chinese, all like native speakers.

And that really is the only way to work it. Which means that, for your plan to work, everybody in the world world would have to have kids with a partner who speaks a different language from them, AND live in a country which speaks a third language. Of course, if everyone in the world did this, then the country they moved to for the third language would be completely depopulated of native speakers, and full of speakers of all sorts of other languages, and the kids would grow up surrounded by people speaking so many different languages that nobody would be able to talk to anybody else! And then, of course, you'd have the problem of schooling, because all the teachers would speak their own language, and without a common language the kids' educations would suffer. You'd end up with a world in which meaningful communication was pretty much impossible in day to day life, and everyone grew up knowing little bits of dozens of languages.

It would be anarchy.

It's also utterly pointless.
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19th June 2008, 08:20 PM #298
devnull
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Posts: 613 He's right about one thing though - parent's are fined (and worse) here for refusing to school their children. Doesn't happen too often these days though (refusing to school that is).
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19th June 2008, 08:22 PM #299
six7s
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Posts: 2,343 Originally Posted by wollery
...for your plan to work, everybody in the world world would have to have kids with a partner who speaks a different language from them, AND live in a country which speaks a third language. Of course, if everyone in the world did this, then the country they moved to for the third language would be completely depopulated of native speakers, and full of speakers of all sorts of other languages, and the kids would grow up surrounded by people speaking so many different languages that nobody would be able to talk to anybody else! And then, of course, you'd have the problem of schooling, because all the teachers would speak their own language, and without a common language the kids' educations would suffer
Hey, hey, I know a solution!

They could all speak a common language...

If I only I could think of an appropriate one... y'know... one that is already spoken in every corner of the world... in business... international airlines... that sorta language... y'know?

If only there was one...

Ah well...

We can only live in hope...

Or la-la land...
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19th June 2008, 08:30 PM #300
wollery
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Posts: 7,062 Originally Posted by devnull
He's right about one thing though - parent's are fined (and worse) here for refusing to school their children. Doesn't happen too often these days though (refusing to school that is).
Yes, that's the case in the UK too. Children must be given an education, but you can't force them to learn anything, you can only force them to attend.
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19th June 2008, 08:40 PM #301
six7s
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Posts: 2,343 Anyone else heard of Home SchoolingWP?




Quote:
Scotland

See also: Schoolhouse Home Education Association

England and Wales

See also: Education Otherwise
Status: Legal

Roland Meighan's 1995 estimate of homeschoolers in the United Kingdom was "almost 10,000",[25] and in 1996 the London Evening Standard stated that 15,000 families home-educating in Britain was a 50 percent increase from the previous year.[26]

One home-education advocate estimated 50,000 children being home-educated in 2005.[27]

Asia and the Pacific

Australia

Status: Legal

The Australian census does not track homeschooling families, but Philip Strange of Home Education Association, Inc. very roughly estimates 15,000.[28] In 1995, Roland Meighan of Nottingham School of Education estimated some 20,000 families homeschooling in Australia. [25]

China

Status: Disputed (currently considered illegal)

There are no accurate statistics of home schooling in China. However, increasing reports of homeschooling in the media[29] suggest that the number is growing. The Compulsory Education Law states that the community, schools and families shall safeguard the right to compulsory education of school-age children and adolescents, and compulsory education is defined as schooling, therefore homeschooling is illegal.

New Zealand

Status: Legal

Karl M. Bunday cites the New Zealand TV program "Sixty Minutes" (unrelated to the U.S. program), as stating in 1996 that there were 7,000 school-age children being homeschooled.[26] Philip Strange of the Australian Home Education Association Inc. quotes "5274 registered home educated students in 3001 families" in 1998 from the New Zealand Ministry of Education.[28]
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19th June 2008, 09:18 PM #302
devnull
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Posts: 613 errrr.... that would be included in the term "schooling your children" in my book
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19th June 2008, 10:49 PM #303
wollery
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Posts: 7,062 And the term, "children must be given an education".
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20th June 2008, 01:31 AM #304
Nationalcosmopolitan
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Posts: 95 "Nationalcosmopolitan, as a former teacher, may I just say that your plan is both idiotic, and unworkable."

It is a paradox, but to learn three languages natively in childhood is easier, than one.
But the child has to be in three languages’ environment.
We can model this trilingual environment to our children, using modern distant communication video and audio possibilities.

"First, you want to force everyone in the world to adhere to a plan based on your own particular religious convictions, and the vast majority of the world's population will tell you where you can shove that idea."

Absolutely not, all parents free to choice Hebrew in trilingual native languages pocket to their children or not.
"Second, some people just suck at languages. It's a fact. The same way some people suck at maths, or science, or telling jokes. That's just the way we are. Some people are so bad at languages that they can't even speak their own single mother tongue correctly. And you want these people to learn 2 additional languages. Even if you could get everyone to agree to your plan, it wouldn't work, because there will be huge numbers of kids who just can't cope with learning more than one language."

Once more I tell you it will be easier to learn natively three languages than one.
I am sure that you are a monolingual person, that’s why it is difficult you to emerge this.

"Third, even if you could get everyone to agree to your plan, AND every kid in the world had the capability, loads of those kids would simply refuse to pay attention in class, and would refuse to do their 3rd language homework. That's just reality. And anyone who's ever taught in a school will confirm it."
The same way as Kids do not remember how they have leaned natively one language they will not remember how they have learned natively three languages.
They will play on computer, being in three languages environments.
Today it is a very cheep global project and parents all over the world will not pay for it.

"Fourthly, as has already been pointed out by others, to be a native bilingual requires that one either have parents with different native languages, or one grows up in a country which has a different native language to your parents."
The teaches of those three languages have to become those “three parents”, using computer distant communication to teach children three languages natively.

"I actually know 3 kids who are natively trilingual - their father is Australian, their mother is Finnish, and they're growing up in China, so they speak English, Finnish, and Chinese, all like native speakers."
Very good example and today we can modulate it to every world kid using widely audio video communication possibilities.
Every language environment will come in the kids room virtually and even more effective than really language environment.



"And that really is the only way to work it. Which means that, for your plan to work, everybody in the world world would have to have kids with a partner who speaks a different language from them, AND live in a country which speaks a third language. Of course, if everyone in the world did this, then the country they moved to for the third language would be completely depopulated of native speakers, and full of speakers of all sorts of other languages, and the kids would grow up surrounded by people speaking so many different languages that nobody would be able to talk to anybody else! And then, of course, you'd have the problem of schooling, because all the teachers would speak their own language, and without a common language the kids' educations would suffer. You'd end up with a world in which meaningful communication was pretty much impossible in day to day life, and everyone grew up knowing little bits of dozens of languages.

It would be anarchy.

It's also utterly pointless."


First of all I want to point, that you have understood my idea of trilingual persons' world very good.
Children must to know languages as if they have two grand mothers and one grandfather of three different mother tongues, that speaks with them all their childhood on those three languages.
We have to modulate this trilingual environment to our children virtually.

It will not be any anarchy because in trilingual persons world every two men will have almost one common language with possibility 99%.

Your franca lingual monolingual mind can’t believe to the man who knows four languages, unfortunately three of them not natively.

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Last edited by Nationalcosmopolitan; 20th June 2008 at 01:41 AM.


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20th June 2008, 03:41 AM #305
Complexity
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20th June 2008, 03:54 AM #306
wollery
Protected by Samurai Hedgehogs!




Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Leaning on a lamppost at the corner of the street
Posts: 7,062 Originally Posted by Nationalcosmopolitan
It is a paradox, but to learn three languages natively in childhood is easier, than one.
But the child has to be in three languages’ environment.
We can model this trilingual environment to our children, using modern distant communication video and audio possibilities.
Which wouldn't address the problem of the children not actually being in a trilingual environment. Being in a physical environment where 3 languages are spoken regularly is vital in this case.


Quote:
Absolutely not, all parents free to choice Hebrew in trilingual native languages pocket to their children or not.
Ah, so now you are saying that Hebrew isn't a requirement. I thought that the whole point was to get everybody to speak the language of God.

No, hang on, I was right, that was the idea;

Originally Posted by Nationalcosmopolitan
Only Hebrew – the language of Bible recreated magically after 2700 years of death can and have to be this common language of national – Resurrected Hebrew bilingual Global world.
Oh, and we seem to have segued from bilingual to trilingual somewhere along the way.


Quote:
Once more I tell you it will be easier to learn natively three languages than one.
I am sure that you are a monolingual person, that’s why it is difficult you to emerge this.
Actually, I speak passable French, enough German to get by, a smattering of Yiddish, and am learning Chinese. My mother speaks English, fluent French and German, and excellent Latin, and my father and grandmother are both natively bilingual in English and German. When I was young many of my school-friends were bilingual. I understand being bilingual, and even multilingual, far better than you might imagine.


Quote:
The same way as Kids do not remember how they have leaned natively one language they will not remember how they have learned natively three languages.
They will play on computer, being in three languages environments.
Today it is a very cheep global project and parents all over the world will not pay for it.
If that worked then millions of British and American kids would already be able to speak Japanese.


Quote:
The teaches of those three languages have to become those “three parents”, using computer distant communication to teach children three languages natively.



Quote:
Very good example and today we can modulate it to every world kid using widely audio video communication possibilities.
Every language environment will come in the kids room virtually and even more effective than really language environment.
No. I don't think you have the faintest idea how infantile language assimilation works, or how very young children interact with computers.


Quote:
First of all I want to point, that you have understood my idea of trilingual persons' world very good.
Children must to know languages as if they have two grand mothers and one grandfather of three different mother tongues, that speaks with them all their childhood on those three languages.
We have to modulate this trilingual environment to our children virtually.
Nice idea, totally unworkable in the real world.


Quote:
It will not be any anarchy because in trilingual persons world every two men will have almost one common language with possibility 99%.
99%??? How many languages do you think there are in the world???


Quote:
Your franca lingual monolingual mind can’t believe to the man who knows four languages, unfortunately three of them not natively.
Addressed above.
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20th June 2008, 04:07 AM #307
ddt
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Join Date: Dec 2007
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Posts: 1,627 Originally Posted by Nationalcosmopolitan
It will not be any anarchy because in trilingual persons world every two men will have almost one common language with possibility 99%.
With thousands of languages around the world, the math behind that is nonsense. Unless, of course, you're again secretly plugging your Hebrew scheme.


Originally Posted by Nationalcosmopolitan
Your franca lingual monolingual mind can’t believe to the man who knows four languages, unfortunately three of them not natively.
Are you trying to brag? With only four languages? Your English, however, is once again testament to the extent to which you know your second languages. It lends support to my hypothesis that the level of your English command is a not unimportant motivator for your Hebrew scheme.



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20th June 2008, 06:36 AM #308
jimbob
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Join Date: Jan 2007
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Posts: 2,313 ddt, it might simply be a reflection of the clarity of thought,

There was a thread about this somewhere...
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20th June 2008, 06:52 AM #309
Hokulele
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Posts: 10,433 Originally Posted by Nationalcosmopolitan
We can model this trilingual environment to our children, using modern distant communication video and audio possibilities.

There are remote parts of the United States where this is impossible, much less most of the Third World.
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20th June 2008, 07:49 AM #310
drkitten
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Posts: 10,859 Originally Posted by Hokulele
There are remote parts of the United States where this is impossible, much less most of the Third World.
This is trivially true, given that there is no spot in the world where what NC proposes is possible.

He proposed:

Quote:
We can model this trilingual environment to our children, using modern distant communication video and audio possibilities.
The only possible response to this is : "er, no, we can't." The results from psycholinguistics and child language acquisition and all the rest of the people who study bilingualism for a living are very clear-cut; we can't "model" immersion sufficiently for children to pick languages up natively. Children don't learn language well from television, but only from active participation in the environment -- hearing two people talking to each other apparently doesn't trigger the necessary stuff. The children need to be IN a trilingual environment.

So it doesn't matter if you're in the heart of rural Arkansas, on a farm in Lower Nowheristan, or in the heart of London.



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20th June 2008, 11:35 AM #311
six7s
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Join Date: Jun 2007
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Posts: 2,343 What's the problem?

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Originally Posted by devnull
errrr.... that would be included in the term "schooling your children" in my book
Originally Posted by wollery
And the term, "children must be given an education".
Whoops!

Mea culpa

I simply inferred what wasn't implied

Ah well... if nothing else, it illustrates (to me at least) how language really is a wiffly-waffly art... not a precise science, subject to rules and laws


Originally Posted by wollery
Which wouldn't address the problem of the children not actually being in a trilingual environment
This brings to mind the whole issue of 'problem solving', and it occurs to me that NC may well be labouring under a mistaken assumption; that s/he has devised a simple, precise and distinct solution to a problem

However, it appears that the problem has not been defined, possibly/probably because - in problem-solving jargon - it's actually 'a mess'; a complicated (i.e. non-simple) mish-mash of problems

As NC's solution seems, to everyone else on this thread, as being both and impractical and severe (involving 'punishment'), I wonder if the conflict has a cultural basis... I have a hunch that, on this thread, NC is unique in coming from a culture where laws are routinely prescribed and adhered to without the freedom to think, critically, about the cause and effect

@NC
Before you provide any more details on how you propose to implement your solution, please identify the problem

Thank you
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20th June 2008, 05:08 PM #312
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Posts: 461 NationalCosmopolitan may be on to something here.
After we create a state where an almost dead religious language is steadfastly mandated, we can move on to other ancient practices.
Sacrifices, blood-letting, and ritual stonings are always good.
Lets discard computers, pens, and paper. Let's go back to papyrus and scribes, brickmakers and slaves.
Oxen for the fields have less of a carbon footprint. I'm beginning to see where this is going...
If most of humanity dies, we can go back to where we were. Fine. Who am I to judge.
Enjoy the straw. It shouldn't be hyperallergenic as most of the allergens have been removed.
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21st June 2008, 11:06 PM #313
Nationalcosmopolitan
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Posts: 95 "Which wouldn't address the problem of the children not actually being in a trilingual environment. Being in a physical environment where 3 languages are spoken regularly is vital in this case."

It is good that you agree, that in some cases it is easier to a child to learn three languages natively then one.
We have to teach children to teach languages and almost everything else in virtual environment that will give in future even more attractive all languages communication environment to the children, than a real environment.

"Ah, so now you are saying that Hebrew isn't a requirement. I thought that the whole point was to get everybody to speak the language of God.

No, hang on, I was right, that was the idea;

Originally Posted by Nationalcosmopolitan
Only Hebrew – the language of Bible recreated magically after 2700 years of death can and have to be this common language of national – Resurrected Hebrew bilingual Global world.
Oh, and we seem to have segued from bilingual to trilingual somewhere along the way."

It is one of my agitation points to the parents to include Hebrew in trilingual pocket to their children.
I want to force the world to play not in monolingual but in trilingual game, that gives to Holy Resurrected Language to get the first place in future and to others languages not to dead in globalize World.

"I understand being bilingual, and even multilingual, far better than you might imagine."

Who statistically more competitive monolingual or multilingual persons according your experience?

"If that worked then millions of British and American kids would already be able to speak Japanese."

We have to answer at one question.
Is Japan interesting about given Japanese natively to every worldwide kid whose parents want to put Japanese in trilingual pocket.
My answer – yes.
Japan can organize virtual language education all over the world to those kids.
And the same to every other country and all languages speaking communities.
They will teach kids their languages natively using communication devices and possibilities to spend kids holidays and Saturdays and Sundays in communities and families of chosen languages.

"99%??? How many languages do you think there are in the world???"
Several thousands, but the most of people will chose in trilingual pocket one of those languages: English, Mandarin, Arabic, Spanish, Bible Hebrew, French, German, Italian, Latin, Russian.
Because this with very big possibility every two men will have the common native language.
I wish it to be Holy Resurrected Language because I am Jew and Israel citizen and God believer.



"With thousands of languages around the world, the math behind that is nonsense. Unless, of course, you're again secretly plugging your Hebrew scheme."

Not secretly!
I want the world to play my trilingual pockets game and not the game of English natively speaking Monolinguals.
All who is not English Natively Speaking Monolingual will play my game and not theirs.

"Are you trying to brag? With only four languages? Your English, however, is once again testament to the extent to which you know your second languages. It lends support to my hypothesis that the level of your English command is a not unimportant motivator for your Hebrew scheme. "
I am an example of multilingual disable persons.
Billions people in the same lingual conditions of people of second – third sorts.
That why I urge to build the world of multilingual and only natively speaking trilingual persons.


"Children don't learn language well from television, but only from active participation in the environment -- hearing two people talking to each other apparently doesn't trigger the necessary stuff. The children need to be IN a trilingual environment.

So it doesn't matter if you're in the heart of rural Arkansas, on a farm in Lower Nowheristan, or in the heart of London."


It is the task of High Tech communication companies to make every place interactively accessible to every person.
Today using Internet, computer, camera and microphone you can repair the car according my consultations, and I am in Negev, and you are in Chicago.
Ten minutes, and your car will be OK!

"There are remote parts of the United States where this is impossible, much less most of the Third World."

In all points of the world it is absolutely really possible and needful to form native multilingual children.
Today you really can be in audio and video communication relationships with every world person.
Nothing else is needed to learn natively all languages your child need!

"Children don't learn language well from television, but only from active participation in the environment -- hearing two people talking to each other apparently doesn't trigger the necessary stuff. The children need to be IN a trilingual environment.

So it doesn't matter if you're in the heart of rural Arkansas, on a farm in Lower Nowheristan, or in the heart of London."

Look at modern soldier or security person.
He is in audio and video contact with his commander and his group and can be extremely physically active in the same time.

The same sort equipment will have every child that will weight mobile phone.
So he can play active games, and in the same time be in audio and video communication with his trilingual environment all over the world.



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21st June 2008, 11:44 PM #314
six7s
veretic




Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Aotearoa
Posts: 2,343 Originally Posted by Nationalcosmopolitan
...the most of people will chose in trilingual pocket one of those languages: English, Mandarin, Arabic, Spanish, Bible Hebrew, French, German, Italian, Latin, Russian
Curious

If you draw a line from Timbuktu to Shanghai (the part of the world where most people live) the only languages to feature in your arbitrary list are Biblical Hebrew (aka Woo) and Manadirin (but not Wu)

What is your agenda?
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22nd June 2008, 12:13 AM #315
Nationalcosmopolitan
Scholar


Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 95 "As NC's solution seems, to everyone else on this thread, as being both and impractical and severe (involving 'punishment'), I wonder if the conflict has a cultural basis... "
I can repeat that monolingual children education must be forbidden practically in every possible legal way.
Only trilingual natively speaking people the future Global Multicultural World of multicultural persons need.

"Before you provide any more details on how you propose to implement your solution, please identify the problem"
To force all the world to believe that triresurrection phenomena brings trilingual persons’ global world were Holy Resurrected Language will be more and more dominate in future and that this post monolingual world will be really the world of all people intellectual, creative and spirit comfort.

"NationalCosmopolitan may be on to something here.
After we create a state where an almost dead religious language is steadfastly mandated, we can move on to other ancient practices.
Sacrifices, blood-letting, and ritual stonings are always good.
Lets discard computers, pens, and paper. Let's go back to papyrus and scribes, brickmakers and slaves.
Oxen for the fields have less of a carbon footprint. I'm beginning to see where this is going...
If most of humanity dies, we can go back to where we were. Fine. Who am I to judge.
Enjoy the straw. It shouldn't be hyperallergenic as most of the allergens have been removed."
It is a really picture of natively speaking English monolingual atheistic pagan world were we trend to go now.
To stop these all-national cultures’ catastrophe trend we need to form multilingual and multicultural persons from our children and believe in God.
We simply have to believe in GOD TRIRESURRECTION PHENOMENA.



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22nd June 2008, 12:19 AM #316
Hokulele
Official Nemesis




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Posts: 10,433 Atheistic pagan?
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22nd June 2008, 01:21 AM #317
Foolmewunz
Grammar Resistance Leader




Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 5,354 Originally Posted by six7s
Curious

If you draw a line from Timbuktu to Shanghai (the part of the world where most people live) the only languages to feature in your arbitrary list are Biblical Hebrew (aka Woo) and Manadirin (but not Wu)

What is your agenda?
I think you might cross India, where the lingua franca is English.


This whole idea is like hering a choruse of What a Wonderful World it Would Be.

Yeah, sure! It'd be great. But when you cross the line to "compulsory", you lose my vote. I'm already trilingual. My (soon to arrive) son is likely to be quatri-lingual or more (English, Thai, Cantonese, Lao... just from his parents and I'll probably try to get him in a school early that has Mandarin immersion). But if anyone was to hand me a writ from the UN or the local government or my home government (USA) saying that I was now mandated that my child had to learn three languages .... Or Else... I'd be heading for Idaho with the tinned provisions.

NC, you'd probably have a more receptive audience for learning new languages if you'd learn to use the forum software. The quote feature is our friend.


Addendum:
Why not just let history take its course. Forty years ago, when I was in the US southwest, the only Spanish speakers were Latino(a)s. Now there are numerous people who've picked up the language for reasons of practicality. As the world shrinks and more and more people work in various countries and regions, this will occur more often.

I also have a number of friends here, westerners, who've managed in various countries in Asia.

It's not at all uncommon to have some like my friend Christian's family.... He's Danish, wife is French. Both speak English fluently. They had their first kid in Thailand where he learned that language plus the three he'd picked up at home. They moved to Indonesia where he picked up the local language to a certain degree. They then moved to Singapore, where he got better at English. They're now in Hong Kong, where the little nipper is picking up Cantonese on the playground.... And Japanese in school, because they sent him to the Japanese school (education is in English but there are several hours a week in Japanese, plus he WANTED to learn it to talk to the cute Japanese girls in his class).
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22nd June 2008, 02:59 AM #318
six7s
veretic




Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Aotearoa
Posts: 2,343 Originally Posted by Nationalcosmopolitan
Originally Posted by me
Before you provide any more details on how you propose to implement your solution, please identify the problem
To force all the world to believe that triresurrection phenomena brings trilingual persons’ global world were Holy Resurrected Language will be more and more dominate in future and that this post monolingual world will be really the world of all people intellectual, creative and spirit comfort.
Please note:

Your response does NOT equate to an identification of the problem

Nor does it make any sense, either... but that is an different issue

Please, identify the problem for which you think you have a solution
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22nd June 2008, 03:15 AM #319
The_Fire
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Originally Posted by Hokulele
Atheistic pagan?
Ye're not the only one, lass......
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22nd June 2008, 04:30 AM #320
six7s
veretic




Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Aotearoa
Posts: 2,343 Originally Posted by Foolmewunz
I think you might cross India, where the lingua franca is English.
I was thinking of India when I wrote that post... hardly surprising, given my ancestry and travel experience...

And, whilst you're right re English being the lingua franca, it occurs to me that Urdu and Hindi each have a rich and loooooong history (with roots in Sanskrit?) that, I imagine, the man on the Mumbai omnibus may well be reluctant to abandon in favour of some johnny-come-lately lingo from the Mediterranean